Urban Hymnal

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Well, grace, mercy, and peace, in the name of Jesus Christ and God our Father. And welcome to another episode of the Forum at Frazer. I'm Will Adams, minister of story here at Frazer Church, and I'm here with two of my friends. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Come on. [00:00:16] Speaker A: And we were just talking about the fact that both of them have met me, just in brief, really. I mean, and we've. We've kind of been in each other's spheres for a little while, but this is, like, my first time to really sit down and have, like, a good conversation with both. But. Yeah. So low Al Amon and Jeremiah Law, and they're with Urban hymnal, I guess, is kind of. [00:00:40] Speaker C: Yep. You know, Houston, Texas. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:43] Speaker A: So. And I want to ask about that, but you guys were just realizing. I didn't realize you guys hadn't put this together, that you. How. What year did you say we met? [00:00:54] Speaker B: So I'm trying to timestamp it. I'm pretty sure it was 2015. [00:00:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:59] Speaker C: And I think it was also the summer of 2015. Yeah. [00:01:02] Speaker B: That's crazy. [00:01:02] Speaker C: Wow. [00:01:03] Speaker B: This feels like one of those, like, Avengers moments. [00:01:06] Speaker A: And you guys had not met yet at that point. Yeah. So, I mean, that was just like, all kind of God incidents. So. All right, back to the matter at hand. What is urban hymnal? [00:01:17] Speaker B: That is a million dollar question. So Urban hymnal started in 2022 as a collective of creatives that love Jesus. And we're trying to figure out what is the intersection between life in the church and also life outside of the church. Thinking that Jesus cares about our worship in a liturgical sense, like he cares about how we worship him. But Scripture says In Romans, chapter 8, all of creation is eagerly groaning, crying out for this desire to see sons and daughters being revealed. We believe that the psalmist talk about how everything is praising the Lord, the narrative for creativity. In the biblical sense, the word for creativity and wisdom are the same word. So all creativity comes from the Lord and is meant to draw our attention back to the Lord. And so everything that we do is an invitation to see Jesus and to share Jesus and to commune with him. And so the idea was that if the city is crying out, if the city has this. This creative bend towards wanting to be known by the Father and to know each other in deep fellowship, then the collection of that sound. It wants to be worshiped whether it knows it or not. So we just wanted to gather up creativity in a space and say, this is a space where we can not just create for the sake of creativity, but to create for the Sake of [00:02:34] Speaker A: communing and fellowshiping with the Lord, man, that's so great. You know, one of the things that I talk about. I've talked about it in reference to worship, but I think when you're talking about in reference to creativity, like, just that it's just an. It's just something that happens. Like, you can't even help it. Like, and I talk about that in reference to worship because it's. It's kind of like a fire hose that, like, you can't turn off. That's just going crazy. Like, you can only direct it, you know, and, you know, that's the same way, though, with creativity, like, you have to. You just have to figure out where you're pointing it. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Come on, man. [00:03:06] Speaker A: That's because it's like, it's. It's going to happen. And I, I love that. I, you know, people that know me are like, yeah, that sounds like something will would be. Yeah, yeah. But I think, you know, when you say all kinds of creativity, leverage all kinds of creativity, I mean, you know, can you talk to us a little bit about what that looks like, specifically? Like, what kind of creative projects or. Or endeavors you guys are participating in? [00:03:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, there's. There's a. I mean, the people that have come through our space, we got tattoo artists, we got dancers, we got flag dancers, spoken word, all that stuff. And I think when it talks. When we talk about, like, leveraging creativity, not just trying to get a bunch of people to produce a bunch of stuff so we can have all these, you know, this art gallery of things. But really we wanted to give a space where they can come and commune with the Father and out of that, whatever. And it doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't have to be like a finished song or finished poem, but that's all. Worship unto the Lord and that's offering. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So the language that we kind of borrow the theology from is John 15. Jesus says that he's the only true vine, and that what we were made for actually is not to be very impressive branches we were made to abide. And then from that verse 8 says, this is to my Father's glory that you bear much fruit, showing yourself to be my disciples. And so the fruit is like, it's gonna come, like you say, it's growing out of us from the overabundance of us doing life in Jesus, life in the spirit, Something's gonna come from that. But the goal is not how do we become branches that make a bunch of fruit. It's how do we become branches that abide in the vine? And then the fruit comes? And so we have a bunch of different kind of creative expressions. It's taken on different shapes. We were talking about this earlier. When we first started, we were like, let's just get together and do artsy stuff. So we did pottery classes. [00:04:54] Speaker C: We tried to start a podcast. [00:04:55] Speaker B: We tried to start a podcast. We weren't nearly as. We didn't have a minister of store. That was our problem. That's a cold title. So, because we had different kind of desires to get together and be creative, but the theology was off. I mean, we were not made it for. Not made for creativity. We're made for. For life and relationship with Jesus. And so I think the different forms that our ministry has taken went from us just hosting a bunch of events and gatherings to being. How do we host space for the presence of a Lord to be the main creative, and then we come alongside him by giving our gifts as well. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's. That's. I love the verse you're talking about. And in reference to, you know, bearing fruit and abiding in God and doing so, you know, one of the things that I was talking to a friend about not too long ago was as, I think as humans, and particularly in our, like, us Western culture, there's a tendency to focus on productivity. And so, you know, when you hear fruit, you're like, yeah, you know, you go after it. Right. But, you know, leaves are technically producing. You're producing something, but it's not fruit. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:06:03] Speaker A: And. And that was something that I like as I was just unpacking that metaphor. It's like, hey, are you just producing leaves? I mean, that's great. That's fine, whatever. Or are you producing fruit? [00:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah, like, and the key to verse eight is like, it's. This is my Father's glory that you bear much fruit, showing yourself to be my disciples. Yeah, like the things that come from you. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Does it reflect the nature of Christ? Does it reflect the. The character of Christ? Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the express image of God and the exact imprint of the radiance of God in the exact imprint of his person. And so that if. If Jesus has come to reflect the love of the Father, if I'm abiding in the love of Jesus, I should be reflecting my love of Jesus. Otherwise, what's the fruit doing, you know? [00:06:48] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, well. And like, even unpacking that metaphor a little bit more, it's like having leaves for a tree. Or whatever is, like, indicative of. It's a. It's a healthy tree. Sure. Having fruit is something that can sustain someone else. [00:07:03] Speaker B: So I'm going to go. J.D. walt, language here. The J.D. has camped a lot of his ministry out in Matthew 13. And as a fellow storyteller and creative, I love when Jesus gets in his creative bag because he's doing it for a reason. Right. He's. He's creating to connect with us. Right. And so when Jesus tells a story, it's about, like, seeds being sown into the ground. And he's very intentional to say the point of this exchange is not how good the soil is. It's not how good people are at receiving the seed. It's about how. So Matthew 13 starts out with saying, the sower went out to sow. The main character is Yahweh. The main character is a loving and kind father who sows extravagantly, and he keeps sowing, and he sows good seed. And the seed might fall by the wayside. It might fall on shallow ground, it might fall on thorny ground or good ground. But the emphasis is that the sower's kind and he has really good seed to sow for us. Like, the end goal for fruit is not just, like, taste and enjoyment. It's that I'm producing something that has more seed. There's more of his character, his nature, more of his kingdom inside of his thing. And so seed gets sown and it produces fruit that produces more seed that then gets sown, and that's how the kingdom advances. [00:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I stole it from J.D. [00:08:18] Speaker C: walt. [00:08:18] Speaker A: So that's not my. [00:08:19] Speaker B: No, no. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Well, yeah, of course. And he stole it from Jesus. [00:08:22] Speaker B: Facts, facts, facts. [00:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, let's say it. No, I think obviously creativity near and dear to my heart, something that I've always been an advocate for. How do we bring our creativity to the throne? How do we find expressive ways of praising Jesus, of telling the story of what he's doing in and through our church and. And the people that he loves? And I. I run into every now and then, and I. I truly understand this caution. I want to say clearly that there are people that are like, you know, you. That can become an idol. Sure. And particularly, you know, when you're talking about, like, creating a lot of art work and. And that, you know, and in fact, in Christian history, we have examples of that with, you know, people making things that were depictions of Jesus or whatever and making them more than they needed to be. And so some of the question is, how do you ensure that you, you keep that, you know, that that line of, you know, hey, we, we are made to create. We're made in the image of a creator, so there's something there. But we're, we're not worshiping the work. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I got thoughts. You want me share my first, you know. All right, so one of my favorite stories in the book, end of the book of John has been in the presence of Jesus and he's been seeing the revelation, he's been seeing all the magic happen. And he's like having his mind blown low key, having a trippy episode because he's seeing. Yeah, yeah, he's seeing all the stuff, right? And this is like creativity on steroids. He's seeing not just like a glimpse of heaven, he's seeing like the throne room, he's seeing the angels in worship. And so while he's standing next to the presence of Jesus and he's seeing like the lamb enthroned, all he can do is like, be in awe and wonder. There's a moment when he stops seeing Jesus. So the scrolls rolled up, he turns away. Jesus is gone and there's no one left but John and the angel. John looks at the angel and after just seeing all this cool stuff, he bows down and worships the angel. And the angel's like, bro, what are you doing? Yeah, we don't do that here. Like, chill out. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:40] Speaker B: And so he stops him from worshiping. And the angel says, worship the Lord alone. Which tells me that it's not creativity at fault for making our hearts seek idolatry. It is the propensity of the human heart apart from the presence of Jesus. The moment Jesus presence is no longer there, we turn to being idols, idol worshipers. Jesus was right there when all the glorious stuff was happening. And the moment Jesus left, that's when he looks, I gotta worship something. So for me, I think that the issue is not so much that creativity is a danger, it's a hearts that are distorted and don't realize that we are not going to. It's not. If we're going to worship, we are going to worship. And so if Jesus presence is in the room, that's where I think it becomes a danger. A lot of what we started off doing with tossing a bunch of different kind of creative ideas around weren't bad. But what really kind of shaped the trajectory of our ministry, as with a lot of ministries that we're hanging out with, was the Asbury Outborne. So both you and Jay Went to Asbury. I hang out there for a little bit. And so we pull up and we were planning on doing more events and we were meeting in a coffee shop like we currently do and all this stuff. And yeah, we're talking about how we're gonna do all these fun events and we're in the coffee shop praying about what the gathering's gonna look like. And then we go to the outpouring and all the stuff we thought was necessary, all the cool lights, all the cool pop ups, all the cool, like, swag and stuff like that. Like, the Lord didn't use any of that stuff at Asbury. It was just his presence. His presence drove people to worship. So when we came back home, it was like, maybe we don't need all the stuff. Maybe instead let's just like treat the presence of Jesus like he's in the room and then offer our gifts not to conjure him up, but because he's already enthroned. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:17] Speaker B: So I think that's the proper view on how worship works, is that a lack of presence creates idolatry. But when the presence of Jesus is held as the center of it all, then all the gifts become worship. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:28] Speaker C: And we've talked about this before, but when it, when it comes to fruit, a lot of times, you know, we talk about organic fruit. And it's funny because, like when we first started, we try to add all these things and it's not, it's like GMO stuff. It's like you try to add all these preservatives, all these things, all these things to make the fruit look good, but at the end of the day, it's actually not healthy for you and to be organic. Like, when we talk about, oh, we want organic community, organic friendship, for some reason we think that it's just, oh, let's just let it happen. But actually organic takes the most effort and the most, like, costs to preserve. And so, so even with, with worship and creativity, it's like we have, it has to be in the right soil, it has to be in communion with God and in the right posture. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Oh man, it's so interesting. You're talking about how organic does take more work, actually. And I, I, I learned that in person because years ago we did a series on the fruits of the spirit. And I just had the idea to go around and interview a bunch of local farmers and folks that just grow fruit. And I talked to one guy who does organic, solely organic stuff. And I mean, he just, they're all super excited by the Way, if you want to do this, like, farmers will talk to you, man. Yeah, they're excited to get interviewed about what they do because, like, people don't ask them a lot of questions about. [00:13:49] Speaker B: And it's the kind of story Jesus told, so I like it. [00:13:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And so. But, like, sitting and talking and they know each other, and they all have opinions about how each other do stuff, too. That's part of funny. But they. This. The guy who grew organically, man, he was, like, telling me all the different things that they have to do to, you know, like, well, we got this kind of thing that we dust the apples with and make sure that this, you know, drive this brown rod or whatever is. Oh, it takes her. And then that's. Man, it just makes me appreciate, like, going to the supermarket. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Why it costs more, you know. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's this. But this is a few cents left, you know, like, yeah, man, it's a lot more work to make that happen. And so, like, in that same way, I think a lot of times we think that being organic in ministry, when we say that being natural, just letting is kind of like sitting back and just letting things go. When it's like, no, you. [00:14:38] Speaker B: It's. [00:14:38] Speaker A: It's even more intentional. [00:14:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker A: It's about preserving the truth of. Of the matter and the focus. [00:14:45] Speaker B: And when you think about the presence of God, there was so much intentionality that came with access in the presence of God. You think about God meeting with the people of Israel outside of Mount Sinai. Like the Lord tells Moses, hey, consecrate the people, prepare them, get ready for my presence. And so for us, bringing the gifts has nothing to do with, like, showing off. It's how am I positioning myself? To be honest, I think the best art is, like, forcing you to be really honest that I might interact with the presence of God. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm bringing my gifts because I'm offering something that's costly to me. Not. And we. We intentionally call our moment of creative sharing offering. Not because you're giving money to us. Like, you're. You're giving your creative gift back to the Lord. You're recognizing this comes from somewhere. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:29] Speaker B: And I'm offering it back to him. So all of this is like the costly consecrating work. So the gifts don't become the point of it. The presence is the point. I'm using gift to help me be in a posture to receive it. [00:15:39] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. Man, I. I love that. I love that language. I think that's really cool. I. I think one of the things that being. Being a person who's worked in kind of a creative field for a long time, and I don't know if you experience this, especially because, you know, you. I mean, you're up front here at. At New Room and doing poems and, you know, I bet people come up to you all the time and like, man, I'm not creative like you. And. Yeah, and I'll get this every now and then. So what do you say when somebody's like, oh, I'm not creative. Like, what do you guys say to that? [00:16:18] Speaker B: Genesis 1:26. Let us make man in our own images according to our likeness. The crazy part about being made in the image of God. Random side note, an image of God is a work of art. [00:16:31] Speaker A: There you go. [00:16:32] Speaker B: It's an actual art piece. [00:16:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker B: Paul picks up on this language in Ephesians 2. Like, you are God's poema. You are God's masterpiece, His work of art. You are an expression of his creative goodness. And so you don't have a choice. You are made with the DNA of being creative because you are a reflection of God's intent in his heart. But also the image of the God you're made in is creative. So aside from the fact that you are a creative piece of art, you're also made in the image of someone who desires to express himself. It is in the human genome to want to be known and to know it's not good for man to be alone. We desire connection. And one of the best ways of thinking about artistry, about creativity, is not that we're created for the sake of creation itself. It's creating for the sake of connection and communion. The first thing God makes is a place to do life with people. [00:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Right, Right. [00:17:21] Speaker C: And if his. If all of his creation is done out of love. When you think about love and what you love, you can't help but do something creative. When you're a parent and you love your kid, you're. You're gonna be creative. Lowe tells me how he makes cartoons for his. For his kids so they can, like, learn life lessons. I'm like, that's a creative thing. And, like, if you're a teacher, if. Even if you work in, like, the marketplace, if you love people, you're going to do creative things. That's the response. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Because that's the way of connecting. [00:17:46] Speaker C: Exactly. And that's. That's the character and image of God reflected in us. [00:17:50] Speaker A: Gosh, that's. That's such a great point. I just. I was. I'm just thinking about how many of, like, the most famous authors, like, it was started as something they told their kids. [00:18:00] Speaker C: Right. [00:18:01] Speaker A: And. Or their niece or nephew or whatever it is, and then they ended up, like, you know, publishing it later. And it's. But it was something that, like, they had that audience in mind as someone like. That they deeply cared for. And I had never thought about it that way. I really. Man, that's really great. Yeah, I think I run into that a lot. That's why I wanted to ask you that question, because I think there's also a misunderstanding that creativity has to look. Look a certain way. And I think particularly people tend to think of a certain brand of artistic creativity. And, you know, I mean, that may be what is more sitting around this table, but I know plenty of people that are very creative with, you know, coding, computer stuff, and, you know, people that are very creative with coming up with complex solutions when it comes to. Comes to dealing with, like, hard numbers and finances or architecture, things that we don't think of in the same way as, like, you know, like writing a poem or making music or what have you. And I think that that's something that gets undersold a lot. And partially because in. In the church, we celebrate. We celebrate music a lot as. As, like, we kind of hold that up as one of the big arts. And that's because it's all throughout Scripture very clear. You know, we're commanded to sing. And so. But there are so many ways that we can worship God through creativity, through just being good at a job that may. That may not be, like, artistic in a sense, but requires critical thinking, requires you to be like, hey, you know, we can. Man, we can come up with. We can do this. And I think people are more creative in different ways than they realize. [00:19:49] Speaker B: Well, if. If I. If I take the view of creativity from a worldly standpoint, then it has to be that. Right? It has to be, what did I produce and how is it received. [00:19:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:58] Speaker B: Versus a more biblically grounded view of creativity. Again, the word for creativity in the Old Testament is the same word used for wisdom. That word for creativity is all about how God expresses himself. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:11] Speaker B: And how that expression is meant to draw us deeper to himself. [00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:14] Speaker B: So in that way, create creativity has much more to do with the lens that you see the world through and much less to do with how you produce things into that world. [00:20:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Jay has Jay's creative lens, helps him see culture in a way that most people don't see. So we're having a whole conversation about like our, our community. And I'm like, yo, the way we do these gatherings, like, I want to see this change. And he was like, I care significantly more about the culture that we're building and much less about how we function. And. But like, if you don't have a creative lens to see that, you don't even. It's like you're a fish in water. You can't see the water. You know what I mean? Yeah, but if you have a lens to see it, like, God's giving you prophetic vision for that. It's not like I have this superpower that nobody else has, but it is an insight that the father's giving the homie to help him see a thing that the father also cares about. You know what I mean? [00:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. I mean, I'd be glad to hear a little bit more about that. In reference to. Culture building is such an important aspect of any organization, and I don't think it gets talked about enough as an aspect of, from, from a Christian perspective like that. It kind of almost gets talked about as a very business production oriented kind of thing. Are we doing the thing and not like, how are we doing it? So, like, when you're talking about that, what is kind of the major catalyst that you think really outlines what determines culture being healthy? [00:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the biggest catalyst is like, it's legit. Like what we've been talking about all weekend at New Room is legal, banded relationships and like life on life. Yeah, like discipleship. And so even, even I'm thinking when, when we had urban hymnal gatherings and we would go out to eat late at night, that's like two hours of discipleship with people. And that's the, that's the culture building right there. It's not like a, a system and like a curriculum that people got to go through. Yeah, curriculum is important and things to have shared values. But I think that culture is, is just through life on life. And that's something we really try to just pursue in every aspect of urban. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's, that's such a good point. It's, it's. Culture is something that that like manifests and, and you can foster it, but you can't like, you know, mandate it. [00:22:13] Speaker C: It's, it's a lot of like, hidden place stuff. Like, it's the conversations and the hangouts that aren't. We're not posting on Instagram saying, look at this, it's. And like, yeah, we have the gatherings but then we have the hidden gatherings that. That really builds, and God, I think, really deposits a lot into. Into those moments. [00:22:27] Speaker A: Right? No, exactly. I. I mean, I think a lot of times people will try to define a culture by, like, listing off, you know, here's our pillars, whatever your. Your mission, your values. And that's. Those are fine. That's not bad. But either those are going to be defining things that are true, or they're going to be aspirational. [00:22:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:45] Speaker A: And I think. I think sometimes, like, people miss that. Like, it's okay to have aspirational values, but also understanding. Like. Like, hey, this actually isn't your culture, like, moment. You're gonna have to work on this. [00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Like, yeah. It's the difference between saying, this is what we're striving towards. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Which is cool. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker B: Which is so cool. Versus this is the water we actually swim in. [00:23:06] Speaker C: Right? [00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think I. I think it's good to have those values, but I think it's also good to draw that distinction to be like, hey, we're not there yet. Like, this is. I mean, like, I think a lot of churches, in some ways, like, even, like Frazer is even known for its diversity, but I think we would even say it's still an aspirational value. We're still not where we want to be on that. I mean, like, and in fostering a community that is. That, you know, is open in so many ways. So. And I. And I say that as member of Frazer of 18 years, that I'm very proud of how in Montgomery, Alabama, we're a church that's very open to a lot of different kinds of people. And, you know, that's, I think, something that has happened both intentionally, but also in that way that's just those conversations. It's just kind of people being willing to. To have that discussion. Anyway, I know it's. I'm not supposed to sit here and brag about my church. Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate it. Well, what up is coming up for. For Urban Hymel and for you guys and how can we keep track of your ministry and connect with you? [00:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah, our ministry really started off as, like, a legit. Like, we're in a community together. [00:24:22] Speaker A: Let's. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Let's have co. Coffee, let's hang out with each other. And I would say that because things got so big so quick, and we had to figure out, like, how to even manage this big thing, we already took, like, rhythmic pauses in general, but, like, our pause has just been elongated, so we can just, like, really focus on the hanging part. So the next thing up for us is we're going to a lake. Yeah, a lot of hanging out. Our team, we have a collective of worship leaders that will still pop out and do events and stuff like that. So we serve in some places together. We'll come to conferences like this. But realistically, like, because we're not created for creativity and we're creative for, like, deep communion, that's our main focus right now is, like, how do we make sure our communion is healthy so that if we do jump back into, like, gatherings, what people find is not busyness, it's genuine communion. [00:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, you guys have anything else? You have anything else to add? [00:25:13] Speaker C: And, I mean, if we're talking about community, if you ever show up in Houston, just hit us up. And you're part of Urban Hymnal. [00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't know that I'm ever going to be able to make it out there, man, but I really want to now. Seems like I would really dig it, so. Well, I appreciate you guys taking the time in this. This very busy week in. In the midst of a lot of other things going on that you could have been doing. I. I'm just so grateful to be able to sit and have this chat with y', all, so. [00:25:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:43] Speaker A: So thank you for coming. Thank you for joining us. And you can always share this with folks. If you think somebody would be blessed by this, and I think somebody would be blessed by this, think of someone and share this with them. And if you haven't already, subscribe. Wherever you get your podcast, add us as a subscription, give us a. Like, a review. All of that helps get things out there. And be sure to join us next time as we seek to fulfill the Great Commission by living the great commandment.