JT Reeves - The True Human Project

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Well, grace, mercy, and peace. And welcome to another episode of the Forum at Frazer. I'm Will Adams here with J.T. reeves, and I'm really excited to talk to you a little bit about some of this whole idea of what it means to be human. Sounds like something that we could all use a little bit of a tutorial in these days. So now, jt, you're a preacher at Radius Church in South Carolina. Do I have that right? [00:00:28] Speaker B: That's right. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Yeah. The church, not your church, larger church, has some image issues these days. So why does the church still have significance even in our metamodern age? [00:00:41] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a big question. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:44] Speaker B: And it's one of the things I am most passionate about, which is why I'm in the church. Just working in the local church is because really, with this generation, we've missed the significance of the church. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Being the mission. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Like as if there's some other mission of popularity or significance that isn't Christ's church. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Some people say missional, and they. They almost mean everything except the local church. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. [00:01:10] Speaker A: When they say that. Yeah. [00:01:12] Speaker B: And so, like, the mission of God. And Timothy Tennant does some great work on this is the church. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:18] Speaker B: And so what's the significance? It's. It is the significance. It's the only thing that God promises like this is. Is going to survive the gates of hell. And no other thing on this planet, no other thing is significant by comparison to his bride. And so I think there's kind of this constant difficulty in trying to reframe. You need to have this church. You can't have the bridegroom without the bride. You can't have any piece of God without the people that he literally nailed himself to on the cross. So, yeah, we've been really working hard and in this book, like, working in each chapter, in each part, to try to incorporate this new mindset of you're not just an individual. As a Christian, Jesus didn't die just for individual. He died for a whole people who could. [00:02:08] Speaker A: For all of humanity. [00:02:09] Speaker B: For all of humanity, for all of eternity. And even from the beginning, it's not good for us to be alone. And in the same way, the church, it's not good for just one of us. This is actually something that Jesus wanted a whole community of people to follow him. So, yes, this is a hard, hard topic to, like, explain to an individualist. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Sure. [00:02:29] Speaker B: But so key. [00:02:30] Speaker A: No, that's. That's a great point. And actually I was having this discussion with our pastor here at Frazer. Not too long ago, about how, particularly just in the west, we've become so individualistic. And there are some ways in which that has an advantage for understanding our relationship with God in a He, you know, died for each of us as individuals, but also understanding, like, our communal advantages, the things that we have as community, as the church, as a community, as humanity, that we have in common, the goals and all of the things that we can accomplish when we come together. I think that kind of gets lost sometimes in Western culture. [00:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And even in understanding the scriptures, you have this beginning of, okay, humanity got lost. Adam and Eve, they're done. Took the fruit, and then it was over and something broke. But when Jesus comes, he comes as the true human, the new human, the one who's the son of man, which just literally is like, I am the human being. And then the church is supposed to be the new humanity. It's not just going back to Eden. It's like becoming this who we were always meant to be. And I think that actually helps us reframe what it means to love the church and to say, every single one of us, we're messed up, we're jacked up, we're broken people. But that's the whole beauty of the gospel. It's not Jesus just loved a bunch of perfect people, but he loved folks that had no business being loved. And that's what it looks like to be the new humanity. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's such an interesting thing, because I think part of what I do when I'm not here at Frazer I do counseling work. And one of the things that got me started on that is addressing church hurt. And that's. I mean, that's a real. Yeah, that's a real popular phrase, and it's a real thing. But I think along with that, we kind of tend to start to throw the baby out with the bathwater at times. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to jump into the conversation about it is because there's some people that are like, I can't do church anymore. And it's because of the way that they've been hurt by people in the church and everything. Not understanding that, as you're saying, it's like the church, the capital C church, as Jesus intended, as he came to build, is primarily looking to correct for the very things that people are experiencing as hurt within the institutional church. So, yeah, I think that's such a great point. And I'm really interested about this true human project that you're talking about. I like to Hear a little bit more about it in general. And so we've kind of started touching on this. But from that perspective, how would you define what true humanity is? [00:05:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's very aligned question with the former. Yeah. The true human project is something we've just kind of a couple friends have started to. How do we actually connect this generation to the church in some ways? And the true humanity is those who live in the image of God, which is the image of Jesus. And so the only definition we really get for what is a human in the Bible is, well, you were made in the image and the likeness of God himself. And it's not just what do I do? It's not just what do I think. It's not just what I feel. It's all those things. It's who are you? [00:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:48] Speaker B: And there's something inexplicable about a human. [00:05:51] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:51] Speaker B: You just are made in the image of God. And so recovering that in the age of AI, oh my gosh, really important Will, like. [00:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Like you have. We have to be emphasizing this as the church, right? Yeah, yeah. [00:06:05] Speaker A: No, that's. That's amazing. I. And I just. I so appreciate that. And you're, you know, mentioning of AI, I think that's of course, very timely. And a lot of I have this discussion on the regular, both as a person who is involved in media creation, kind of in art creation and all of those things alongside also just kind of, I mean, the mental health aspect of it, man, I mean, has been very interesting to watch. Very unfortunate in the way that we've lost some of those guardrails. Well, lost indicate we had them in the first place. We haven't. So. Yeah. I mean, you bring up AI when that's obviously something that, I mean, I don't know if the threat is the right word, but kind of, you know, is. Is something that can. Can act as. As a counter to what true humanity is in our age. And, you know, I didn't have this as one of our questions, but I just was kind of curious. Could you expound a little bit on, you know, how AI acts as in opposition to that true humanity? [00:07:11] Speaker B: A little bit, yeah. Yeah. So I think even going back to that church hurt piece, there is genuine hurt by a lot of people. Yeah. All the time. And yet at the same time, I think often it's less just church hurt and more human hurt. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:28] Speaker B: And it's. We have relationships with human beings, we're going to be hurt by them. [00:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:32] Speaker B: And what that's caused a whole Society to do is to fear being in relationship at all. Which is why AI is so incredibly dangerous. Because then what you've taught a society of people to do is to offload your emotions onto something that feels safe and feels like it can affirm you. And we've redefined love as the most significant piece of love to be. To be affirmation. And the moment you do that, any human relationship becomes really difficult. And the whole point of being human is, is deeply relational. Yeah. And so we've got this uphill battle as a church to say. I mean, I'm just sitting across from a college student this week. [00:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:15] Speaker B: And he looks at me and he says, jt, if you just seen what I've been telling Claude. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Oh no. [00:08:21] Speaker B: You would know how like stressed I am right now. And I'm like, I'm stressed. What is. Yeah. And that's like not an abnormal thing. Yeah. Because this is where you can. [00:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:30] Speaker B: You feel like you're free to be yourself. [00:08:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:33] Speaker B: But it's actually the opposite of being yourself because you're not living in relation to another person. [00:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and I'm not going to remember the name. There was, there was a famous quote and. But about a certain philosopher Christian who wasn't a Christian at the time, decided he was going to make his own book and that'd be crazy. Yeah. [00:08:56] Speaker B: So weird. [00:08:57] Speaker A: No, no, no. Like, sorry. Make his own holy book. And that was filled with all of the things, all of the knowledge that he sought as the, whoa. As like, you know, what, what was needed. And it's, I'm just recalling this and I just can't remember this guy's name. But he, he made this comment, it was his pre Christian years and he was like trying to collect, you know, all the knowledge into one, one book that he was like, this is the book that is going to understand who I am. And it's so interesting because it's the folly that humanity has, you know, kind of like had when you know, they're, they think like, well, being human is looking in a mirror kind of. And that's a little bit what AI is. It's like this, you know, self feedback kind of thing. But this guy, what he discovered is that once he put it all together and he sat down, he's like, I'm going to read it. It's going to be the book that understands me was the way he put it. And he just found himself very depressed at, you know, it didn't give him any like new knowledge obviously. And the way the Story went is his wife happened to bring home a Bible that day that she had been given. [00:10:10] Speaker B: That day. [00:10:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that day. That day. In his native language. And then suddenly he was like, well, no, this is the book that understands me. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Come on. [00:10:21] Speaker A: And so I just think about that in reference to the way that AI. We kind of pour all of our existing knowledge into it, right? And then we expect it to come back at us with the answer so often. And I mean, yeah, it's fine at putting other, like, existing information, whatever, but it's not going to give us new knowledge ever. And that's. That's what people are looking for when they sit down and like, you're saying, they're like, let me explain all of the. My deep, dark secrets and let it, you know, tell me kind of, oh, I'm okay. You're okay. You're fine. And I mean, as a person who does counseling also, it just. It's so clear to me how much sitting across from a human being and saying those things that you're afraid someone's going to judge you about is such a. By itself, a healing thing. And then on top of that, those of us that have the Holy Spirit, we get to be agents of God's grace and respond to a person and say, you know, guess what? You're forgiven for that. And, you know, get to do all that. So, you know, I'm. And I realized as I was talking about making a book, I'm like, okay, well, we're here to talk about a book that you have written. But it's not a book that is the folly of humanity. That's, you know, all the sum. Trying to. [00:11:37] Speaker B: Well, it might be sum total. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Well, I assume this whole idea of what is a true human is the inspiration for your book, which is titled the True Human. It just was released yesterday. Is that right? [00:11:51] Speaker B: Honestly, I don't even know. Yeah, this week. [00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But as a result, I haven't had time to read it all yet, but I know. I look forward to checking it out. So can you give us just a little taste beyond what you've already said, what is kind of covered in this book? [00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. 1. Thank you for giving me a sermon illustration. I'm going to use that. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:12:12] Speaker B: About the guy. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Gosh, I need to look up who that is. Okay, so you. You talk for a little bit. [00:12:17] Speaker B: You find it? [00:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to find it. [00:12:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So this. This book was really a response to encountering the idea of Jesus as the true human, and that was revolutionary for me. Partly because I think, especially in my demographic, like, there's such a search for who am I? And even more so now with the technology boom, like, what does it mean to be human? And so trying to discover what does it mean to be human? And, you know, you got your Sunday school answer, like, look at Jesus, but there's a whole framework that you can actually see. And so I began to, like, think of how do I talk to someone who knows nothing about the Bible, which is a lot of people. And it really felt as if understanding that line, like, the Bible being a story about recovering humanity, the Bible being a story about sin as inhumanity, as dehumanization, as being less than who you're meant to be in the image of God, and the Bible being about a new and true human coming to recover what it was that we lost from the very beginning. I think that is just a really powerful way to get at a lot of the biggest issues that are messing with folks and hindering us from understanding Jesus. [00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And I think having that focus on. I mean, with understanding Jesus's humanity, I think kind of sometimes gets lost. I don't. I don't know about you, but I remember growing up watching, like, the early depictions of Jesus. And on. I say early, but for, like, in film and that were, like, older, where he walk into a room and everybody freeze and stare at him. And he's like this, you know, ethereal, you know, being that just floats through the room and, you know, versus, you know, when you look at the chosen right now, it's a much more human version of Jesus, who is much more about relating to his disciples as, you know, brothers, as one anothering one another. So I appreciate that. And I did look it up. His name is Emil Kalya, or Kalya. I'm butchering it. I'm sure Calliette is a. He was French kind of academic, and he was born in the late 1800s. So. But that was the. That was the fellow that had that experience. And he grew up in a home where the Bible wasn't read. So he just wasn't at all familiar with it. And so he was, like, searching for the Bible in a lot of ways when he did that. But. [00:14:56] Speaker B: Well, and that's. I think there's such a significance to relearning that the Bible is living and active. [00:15:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:15:03] Speaker B: In our time. And that was partly like writing this book was saying, I don't think, you know, the Jesus that I know. The way that culture has trained you to believe in a kind of Sweet happy Jesus with who's floating in the air. It's like that's just not who he is in the Bible. He is a lot more than that. And, and so I think recovering for a generation that really has not read the Bible at all. And even adults, like if you're 40 plus, just the biblical literacy is crazy. And rediscovering that this thing is not. It's not just a book that we read to dominate the topics, it's a book that really reads us. [00:15:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:40] Speaker B: And it has the power to tell you who you are. [00:15:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:43] Speaker B: It's the only thing that can actually tell you what it means to be human. [00:15:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So I am an graduate of Asbury. [00:15:49] Speaker B: I see the shirt. [00:15:50] Speaker A: Yes. And Asbury University, for those who don't know, has a history of revival culture and what for me it's very near to dear my heart. I'm not only a graduate, I was a third generation Asbury and my nieces and nephews are graduating from there now. And so it's been really cool to see my parents were there for a revival that happened in the 70s that was kind of a well known one. And a lot of people don't realize that there were a couple of short periods in the 90s and the aughts where chapel lasted a week and we had, you know, kind of an experience where people were just there all the time, praying, worshiping, sharing testimonies and things like that. But a lot of us in the particularly in the Wesleyan end of the evangelical sphere were very much aware of the outpouring that happened here recently. Just a couple of years ago, my, one of my nieces and a nephew were actually there at the time. And so we were getting daily reports our family text thread was blowing up over it. And so, you know, I was just intensely jealous that, you know, they got to experience this at the same time. Grateful I got to, to be there for one that lasted a week even. And I understand that that was a very impacting experience for you too also. So can you talk to that a little bit? [00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Interestingly, Asbury and Wheaton, which is my college. [00:17:25] Speaker A: That's right. [00:17:26] Speaker B: Are pretty interconnected. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Yes, they are. [00:17:28] Speaker B: So what will happen historically is that one will have a revival and then a couple weeks later it'll spread to the other one. [00:17:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So cool. [00:17:36] Speaker B: And traditionally there's almost always been a connection between which I came to realize only a couple years ago. But yeah, so we had a moment where we've been praying, we've been doing. There's some Koreans at my school who started praying all night once a month. And we'd have hundreds of students go to these things, and Moody would come over and a couple other colleges, and it was just like the Lord was lighting up something in our campus. And so we're praying for revival, and then this starts taking place. And that week, I had visited another seminary in California, and I was. I can't miss any more class. And my best friend looks at me. He's like, what is wrong with you? Like, who are you? Yeah, have you been praying for this thing? So we drive down, and I pack out my Honda Civic a couple hours later with some random underclassmen that I literally just walked through the cabin. I'm like, hey, you want to come with? And they all pull up. We end up there at, like, 11:30pm and it's just weird. [00:18:31] Speaker A: This is. [00:18:32] Speaker B: This is awesome. [00:18:32] Speaker A: Pretty. Pretty late. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Yeah, this is late. There's nobody really in here. People just kind of singing, but kind of not. And, like, people on Instagram, like, all the things. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:39] Speaker B: But what really takes place over the next 48 hours is an encounter with Jesus. For almost everyone I was with, we ended up having over 50 people come down from Wheaton and just like, miraculous thing after miraculous thing after miraculous thing happens, and it just explodes the boxes that you have around God. And so coming out of that, we had, you know, 60 days of. Of nightly worship at our school. After that, just for hours upon hours staying in the throne room. And for me, what it really was a symbol of and a reality, it was less about a sort of powerful evangelistic movement where tons of people come to Jesus. Like, that wasn't what it felt like. It was more of God claiming to be the most interesting thing in the life of the iPhone and everything else. Even, like, that was right at the advent of AI becoming normalized. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Which is, looking back, that wasn't the big thing in the moment, but that was right when ChatGPT sort of like, [00:19:41] Speaker A: yeah, that's kind of interesting. And I think God did something there. [00:19:45] Speaker B: He's like, I am. I'm just bigger than these things, and if I want, I can snap, like, snap my fingers and take your attention. And so, for me, it was really transformative in thinking God can demand way more of me than I ever knew, and in demanding that much, he's able to give way more than I could ever ask for. So it was certainly something that really transformed my life and many other people that I know, but mostly the hungry people, like, the people that just wanted a Little bit more. Here's a lot more. More than what you've been here then. So did you. What did you come away from? From the outpouring? Did you have thoughts or. [00:20:25] Speaker A: So, so I, I didn't attend in person. I was only attending vicariously. And part of the reason why I didn't actually make time is like part, part of what I was sensing at the time. Like, actually we were on a staff retreat at one point during when it was really kind of starting to blow up. And. And I remember because someone at the retreat center we were at saw I was wearing an Asbury shirt and was like, hey, that's where that thing's going on right now. And so I was like, yeah, my niece is there actually, and was able to say, like, you know, it's really been great. It's been important for her. And what I really felt and I saw, like, I had classmates who had graduated, I'm graduated in 08, who drove through the night and, you know, went and visited, and it was exactly what they needed. And I kind of find myself asking God, like, I don't know, should I make that trip? Should I go up there? You know, whatever. And mostly I felt like it's like you don't have the level of need in your life. And like the thing I was hearing about, like, how packed out it was and everything, and also how they were trying to allow for the college students to be younger folks, you know, So I was kind of like, let the folks that are there have this. And, you know, as a person who's firmly in the millennial generation, was like, Gen Z needs this moment. I think it's going to be one of those moments for the church in America, for Gen Z leadership that I think can be a bit of a guidepost that can be pointed to is like, you know, remember that moment that God poured out in such a huge way. He can do it again. He can do it again in each individual's life. He can do it again in the life of the church. And like you're saying, and I hadn't thought about that. I thought that was. That's an interesting point about, you know, like, the normalization of AI and what's happened kind of in our culture since then. It's like a big reminder of, don't worry about that, but don't put your faith in that. Because one of the things I think when you're talking about AI, that can happen a lot is even for those who aren't super excited about it, it can be a Real sense of anxiety, for sure. And so having something like this in the midst of that, that's just like, forget social media. Forget all these new technologies that seem to be ruining our world. It's like, don't worry about it. God's got this. And he's gonna reach into the lives of young people and remind them is like, I'm more powerful than anything any other force in your life, any other invented thing by man. And so it's going to serve, I think, this generation greatly to have had that experience. And I think we're gonna continue to see, because there were people who question every anytime. There's a big output of, you know, people question. And I don't think that they're wrong to be skeptical, but I think what we've seen from that, the. The number of. Of leaders that are. Are coming out of how this sparked and everything, and. And people that are still looking back and going, you know, that I didn't even realize it then, but that was when I felt called into film in the blank. Or in my case, I think I can speak for my niece. It was a very healing moment for some of what she was going through at the time. And so I feel like there has very clearly been staying power for it. And I'm just so grateful that it's happened and still is happening. I mean, like I said, and mentioning Wheaton, I mean, one of the things I know Wheaton experienced the same revival in the 70s that Asbury did and a lot of other colleges, too. And so it's really cool to see, like, how God does, like, just, you know, he shows back up when we need him. And so, I mean, I was very excited about it when it was going on. I'm more excited about it now as I continue to see what I think is, like, the maturing of the same moon movement just continuing to pour out. [00:24:42] Speaker B: The fruit lasts. And, like, the fruit is what Jesus always says. This is what proves whether it's real or not. And I do think I've seen many people continue to be impacted by what the Lord did there. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so cool. Well, you know, we've talked about a few different things. I'm sure people will want to check out the book, but how can people connect with you and follow what you're doing in the kingdom and. Anything else you want to add before we close? [00:25:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, connecting with me would just be my Instagram jtreves, and my substack is the true human project. [00:25:18] Speaker A: And check that out. I got to read just a little bit of that to kind of familiarize myself. And I really appreciate what you're writing in there. Cool. [00:25:27] Speaker B: I got to get back to writing a little bit more. But, yeah, so I'll put articles out there and on our culture, on Zin Z, on revival, on technology and that kind of stuff. And then, I mean, last words. I think the cool thing is that even with all this new stuff, maybe one of the main reasons I want to write this book is Jesus is still the solution. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:48] Speaker B: It's not really a new solution. We can look at it through a different lens. And we should. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Because there are different things. And yet at the same time, we can still say everything is the same under the sun. And there's one person who came and he is the solution. Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:05] Speaker A: And that gets to bring us great peace in the midst of, you know, what can be a very tumultuous world. [00:26:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time during this busy week, and we're looking forward to getting an opportunity to read the book. And we'll be seeing what else comes from your ministry. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's been fun. Will. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Thank you so much, and be sure to join us next time as we seek to fulfill the Great Commission by living the great commandment.